R’ Shneur Zalman Berger, Beis Moshiach’s historical researcher, hosts his friend R’ Yosef Yitzchok Kaminetzky for a fascinating discussion between fellow researchers. * They agree that much needs to be done to bequeath Chabad history to the younger generation. * They disagree about whether it is appropriate to give the Righteous of the Nations of the World award to the Nazi officer who was instrumental in saving the Rebbe Rayatz. * A fascinating journey into the world of Chabad historians.
Preserving history was always considered in Lubavitch – especially in the seventh generation – to be a matter of the highest importance. The Rebbe Rayatz greatly encouraged the writing of stories of Chassidim and memoirs. The Rebbe MH”M also encouraged this on countless occasions, in order to relive the past and to draw upon the flavor of yesteryear in order to transmit it to the next generations.
One of the people identified with Chabad history in our time is R’ YY Kaminetzky who, in various ways, is breaking new ground in sharing that history, whether through his books Kitzur Toldos Chabad and Yemei Chabad, which are fundamental works about the history of our Rebbeim, or whether with his documentaries of the places where the Chabad Rebbeim lived and passed through. He also rewrote stories of the Rebbeim for the children of Tzivos Hashem in his series “Rabboseinu Nesieinu” with vowels. This is all in addition to numerous revelations and exclusives in various Chabad publications.
To mark 20 years of Beis Moshiach, the publication where I publish much of my historic/Chassidic research, I sat down with R’ Kaminetzky to discuss Chabad history. R’ Kaminetzky serves as director of the religious council in the district council of Emek Lud and was very busy, but he was willing to clear some of his time for this discussion which he also considered important. This is not the first time we’ve met. We sometimes discuss and clarify historical issues and send one another important discoveries that we’ve made. All this adds an additional dimension to the historical articles that are published in Beis Moshiach as well as to the historical chapters published in my books.
I prepared some important points for this talk but I soon set them aside in favor of a free-flowing and fascinating discussion that went on for quite some time. When at a certain point the photographer set aside his camera and got involved in the discussion too, I saw that history belongs not only to historians and researchers, but also to the young generation who are becoming more interested in their history.
YEARS OF HISTORIC GROWTH
Shneur Berger: Chassidic history is very important and our Rebbeim gave it a place of honor within the darkei ha’chassidus. But what can we do when sometimes it seems that among the younger generation, Jewish-Chassidic history doesn’t seem to hold their interest as much. For this reason we, who work with Chassidic history, need to work not only on the research but also on the style and manner in which it is presented so that it also speaks to the youth.
R’ Kaminetzky: We definitely have to work to bequeath Chabad history to the younger generation and to everyone, but the interest and information needs to be divided into two parts. Those in their 30’s and 40’s lack information. I have discovered that those who are younger are very curious and really want to know, and they know a lot. Even young children know plenty.
There are a number of reasons for this, the main one being the sichos which are rich in Chabad history have been translated into Hebrew, and other s’farim that document Chabad history have been published in recent decades. That is why the younger ones know more. I’ll give you an example. A few years ago, I spoke with a group of Chabad young men and made a reference to the “Yalta Journey” which the Rebbe Rayatz talks about at length, that on this trip he heard many stories from his father. I was taken aback when I saw that many of the young men knew nothing about this and who went there.
Shneur Berger: It is interesting to see in hindsight the ups and downs in the publication of Chabad history. I think that we are now in a tremendous growth spurt in this area. It started in the early years of the Rebbe’s nesius when the Rebbe told Agudas Chassidei Chabad to make sure to publish the memoirs of Chassidim. In the next period, series of memoirs of Chassidim who had learned by the Rebbe Rashab in Tomchei T’mimim were published in Chabad publications.
In the following years there was a downturn in the publication of history but in the 90’s there was an upswing with the publication of historical articles. Then many books were published, whether stories of the Rebbeim or biographies of Chassidim. Now we are in an unprecedented upswing in which every so often a new historic book is published, whether biographical or on other historical topics.
R’ Kaminetzky: Stories of Chassidim are an important foundation in Chassidus; as R’ Boruch Sholom Cohen (the father of R’ Folye) said, we ought to learn from the czar’s soldiers who studied the history of the czar’s family before anything else. This included dates of birth and death, their children etc. This was so that the soldiers would know who they were fighting for. It is said that they would send to the Chassid R’ Hillel Paritcher those who had an interest in Chassidus so he could teach them the principles of Chassidus. First he would tell them Chassidic stories and only then would he teach them Chassidus.
Going back to biographies, the publicizing of the history of Chassidim is a good thing, but we need to think about the “schmaltz,” i.e. when details in the life of Chassidim are exaggerated in order to make a fatter book. Of course, great care should be taken in using descriptions that don’t fit the person. It has happened that those who knew the Chassid being written about did not understand how certain things could be written about them. Better to write a thinner book than a book full of schmaltz.
There’s a saying that a baker cannot comment about his own dough, but take for example my book Anashim Chassidim Hayu in which I wrote about my distinguished Chassidic grandparents, R Zalman Moshe HaYitzchaki and R’ Avrohom Maiyor (Drizin). Since they are prominent Chassidim who are spoken about a lot and are quoted, I published a medium sized book about them. Some people complained that I could have added more stories, but I felt that the reader did not need to be overburdened. In later years, other descendants published a book in English about my grandfather R’ Avrohom Drizin and they added to it.
Shneur Berger: I helped in the publication of the English edition; and in my humble opinion, those who complained were right at least somewhat, because more could have been said about these great Chassidim in the first edition. The more that it is possible to add and fill in details, the better, because this is actually the only preservation of the material that will remain for generations.
R’ Kaminetzky: One thing is for sure, the book is free of schmaltz, i.e. unnecessary and exaggerated descriptions or those which don’t fit the reality. I wrote the history of the lives of my grandparents as they were, so the next generation will know the truth.
HOW DO YOU DISCOVER HISTORY?
Shneur Berger: I know that you shy away from the title of researcher even though that is how you are always referred to in the Chabad media. Nor do you like the term historian, but Chabad Chassidim definitely owe you a big thank you for your documentation of history in a systematic way in your important books, Yemei Chabad and Kitzur Toldos Chabad. History buffs certainly remember the numerous discoveries and revelations that you published over the years. Can you tell us, how do you make these historic discoveries? For example, how did you discover the place where the Rebbe’s brother, R’ Dovber Schneersohn, was murdered?
R’ Kaminetzky: It was a few years after my brother, Shmuel, went on shlichus to Dnepropetrovsk, the city where the Rebbe’s family lived. As part of my work in documenting history, I set it as my goal to locate the place where the Rebbe’s brother was killed. We knew that it happened in the town of Igren. I went there and worked hard until I found a goy who was present when they took out all the patients from the hospital where R’ Dovber was hospitalized to be killed.
This man told me that the murderers removed all the patients, told them to crawl on the ground in order to humiliate them, and then shot them one by one. It was a horrific sight.
After we located the place, we put up a monument in the memory of those who had been killed and I publicized this in Beis Moshiach in the early years.
HISTORY IN A MODERN FRAMEWORK
Now, I’d like to know from you, R’ Shneur Zalman, how did you start getting involved in research on Chabad history and preserving the memory of historical events?
Shneur Berger: It was shortly after I got married when my friend R’ Menachem Ziegelboim asked me to collect information about Chassidic figures from the elder Chassidim. That was the beginning. It continued when I began working for Beis Moshiach. At first, I wrote on a variety of subjects. Some might remember that I was in charge of the news, or a series of articles about shluchim and Chabad Houses in Eretz Yisroel, and numerous miracle stories. I did that while also publishing historical articles and series. As time went on, I left the current events to my colleagues and focused on history which really interested me.
History is very complicated and challenging. Few Chabad Chassidim deal with it and each one has his style. There is enough work for all.
My style of research in recent years includes personal interviews along with research work in libraries and archives. There are periods in which I am a regular visitor at the National Library and when necessary, the Zionist Archive, the Yad VaShem library, the State of Israel Archives and more. Over the years, I have been given access to personal, important archives like the archive of R’ Eliezer Karasik, director of Aguch, that of askan R’ Zushe Wilyamowsky, of the gabbai of the Rebbe Rayatz, R’ Eliyahu Yochil Simpson, and archives from the Chein family, etc. In the course of my work, I draw upon the appropriate materials and use them to create the articles and books and other platforms.
In this way, I have gotten to a lot of material which was never seen before, important and unknown events in the history of Chabad were revealed, and this material added an important dimension to the history series about Chabad in the Holocaust, Chabad in Tel Aviv, Reshet Oholei Yosef Yitzchok, Yeshivas Toras Emes, and more.
R’ Kaminetzky: For many years I worked for Reshet Oholei Yosef Yitzchok and only after that did I get into documenting history. This is when I discovered the enormous ignorance among Lubavitchers in their knowledge of the history of our Rebbeim and Chabad Chassidim.
It began with my radio broadcasts that took place many years ago in Kfar Chabad. I had a history program every Motzaei Shabbos for an hour and a half, a live broadcast. The programs dealt with Yemei Chabad and I was helped by R’ Yosef Solomon in locating material. In the program I noted important Chabad dates like births and deaths, imprisonments and wanderings. I expanded on each item from sources more and less well known. I kept this material and some years later I put it together in the book Yemei Chabad. Since then, the book has become popular and I say this based on sales which have reached many thousands in the Hebrew version and thousands more in other languages.
The book only notes Chabad dates while many other topics connected with the history of the Chabad leaders that are not connected to specific days are not included. For that I put together the history of the Rebbeim and their families according to the years of their leadership and it is called Kitzur Toldos Chabad. Many topics were added to this book, as well as documents and pictures that illustrate the history of our Rebbeim. Over the years, I have acquired a lot of material which was not known and it has all been published in books and articles.
The way I work is completely different from yours. Although you see many “exposes” from me, this is not the purpose of my work. My goal is to organize the existing material, i.e. those things which our Rebbeim and Chassidim told and which are already in writing. When it is all organized, according to days or Rebbeim, every Chassid can easily learn the Chabad history. The book Kitzur Toldos Chabad is in many Lubavitcher homes and many people are learning the history of the Rebbeim.
Shneur Berger: I must praise you for your work in video documenting the history of the Alter Rebbe and the Mitteler Rebbe; it’s really an idea that nobody ever considered. The videos in which you show the places they lived, wandered and were imprisoned, bring the viewers into a time tunnel.
R’ Kaminetzky: Today, when there is a plethora of visual information, we must present history in this modern framework as well. This is why I traveled with a photography team to Russia, more than once. While there, I searched and located many places associated with the history of the Rebbeim and we produced videos that show what the Rebbeim and Chassidim went through.
When you are shown the area where the Alter Rebbe was born, and then you see the spring which is also known today as the “white spring,” it makes the Chabad stories more real.
I made a surprising discovery when I went to the village of Liadi from where the Alter Rebbe fled during the war with Napoleon. As we know, from the history of the Alter Rebbe, after he fled, Napoleon himself went Liadi to look for him. Some researchers wonder why Napoleon, who waged such a big war in Russia, had to go to this little village. While looking around the village, I saw a large monument on which it is inscribed that from here Napoleon went to war in Russia!
I went to the “colonies,” the agricultural settlements that the Mitteler Rebbe founded. Chassidim who settled in these places complained that they were far from Lubavitch. So the Mitteler Rebbe promised to visit them. The time came and the Rebbe arrived. According to reports at the time, the Rebbe stayed a long time and said Chassidus a number of times in the shul in the settlement whose name means “good river.”
In my trip to document the colonies, we found a place called, till today, “good river,” even though all the residents are not Jewish. But they realize that the shul is a holy place and it stands there, desolate, but nobody enters it. That means that the shul in which the Mitteler Rebbe said Chassidus is still standing.
In the video, the lives of the nissim from the Alter Rebbe until the Rebbe Rayatz are documented. Now I want to get to the most relevant part, the history of the Rebbe’s childhood, to which will be appended the history of his father, the gaon, R’ Levi Yitzchok.
Shneur Berger: In recent years, since you have been serving as director of the religious council in Emek Lud, there is no time for trips and even your involvement in history has suffered.
R’ Kaminetzky: These days, I am busy with important mitzvos – running the infrastructure of rabbanus, kashrus, mikvaos, etc. in the yishuvim of Emek Lud, and the most important and biggest of them in Kfar Chabad. This position does not allow me to get greatly involved in history even though I am currently working on a new edition with additions to Yemei Chabad. (As we spoke, R’ Kaminetzky gave me a volume of the current edition with handwritten additions which will be added to the new edition).
I’ve also made trips with some distinguished Chassidim to Samarkand, Lvov and Paris. It was fascinating to reconstruct the trip by train, crossing the border from Ukraine to Poland as the Chassidim did when they sneaked across the border. By the way, I recently discovered that the secret police knew that Chassidim were doing this and they followed them to Poland. Chassidim rejoiced when they crossed the border successfully, even though Russia, for the most part, ruled over Poland too.
Many Chassidim, after crossing the border, crowded into the shul in Cracow. The Russians knew what they had done and informed the Poles that they had to send the Jews back to Russia. But the head of the Polish Secret Police was a Jew and despite his position he sometimes helped Jews. He made sure to get the Jews onto buses and to send them straight to Czechoslovakia on their way to western countries out of reach of the communist hold.
Shneur Berger: Speaking of the period after World War II, I want to talk about a topic connected to the series of articles I did for Beis Moshiach, Chabad in the Holocaust. Thanks to this series, I studied in depth many topics related to the Holocaust and World War II, while you have dealt a number of times in various publications with the rescue of the Rebbeim. You even recommended that an award for the Righteous of the Nations of the World be given to Admiral Wilhelm Canaris who arranged for the rescue of the Rebbe Rayatz during the Holocaust and undertook a very dangerous mission in which the Rebbe, his family, and a group of Chassidim, left Poland until they reached Latvia, thus saving their lives.
In my humble opinion, your request is out of place, just as we would not award the senior Hamas figure who released Gilad Shalit. How can you give an award like that to someone who collaborated with the plan to exterminate the Jews, even if he helped save the Rebbe?!
R’ Kaminetzky: First of all, I must say that the series on Chabad in the Holocaust was important, fascinating, and I read all the chapters because the materials you worked so hard to unearth are very interesting.
As far as the Righteous of the Nations award for Admiral Canaris, chief of the German military intelligence service, I think, as do others, that he should be awarded the title because despite his senior position he actually saved thousands of Jews from certain death.
Shneur Berger: But the chief of the German military intelligence service himself sat together with the generals who directed the world war and he was a partner to decisions that were made that led to the annihilation of the Jewish people!
R’ Kaminetzky: That’s not so. The chief of military intelligence was responsible for spying on countries outside of Germany in preparation for their eventual occupation and he did not have a role in destroying Jews. He certainly never gave orders to kill Jews. And he saved thousands of Jews including the Rebbe Rayatz. It should be pointed out that Canaris’ assistant was awarded as a Righteous of the Nations.
Shneur Berger: Those who oppose giving Canaris this award, and I salute them, maintain that he was part of the general command and since this military system included the despicable attempt to exterminate the Jewish people, Canaris is a part of it. So even if he was involved in rescue work, this cannot atone for his share in the command system which killed millions of Jews.
R’ Kaminetzky: True, he held a senior position, but when it came to Jews he demonstrated that he was not at all involved and therefore, for his part in rescuing the Rebbe he deserves an award.
LOST OPPORTUNITIES
Shneur Berger: People generally like to talk about successes but in documentation and historical research we know there are many disappointments. I want to tell you about one of them.
I remember that when I began working on the book about R’ Zushe Wilyamowsky, I prepared a list of people to interview together with his son, Levi. On the top of the list was R’ Shlomo Maidanchek who worked with R’ Zushe for years to carry out the Rebbe’s instructions to the vaad of Kfar Chabad and Chabad askanim.
R’ Shlomo, who avoided interviews, opened up to me and from time to time, when necessary, he would add some pearls to articles that I published in Beis Moshiach. One year, before Purim, I called him and he answered briefly: I am busy distributing matzos, call after Pesach. As you know, he would give out matzos to many politicians, people in the military, etc. and he was working on this before Purim already.
A few days after Purim he had a stroke and he passed away on Pesach. I grieved over his passing and also felt I had lost out big time for I could no longer talk to the person who would certainly have wanted to talk about the Partisan. While preparing the book, I discovered that Chabad was involved in the effort to get R’ Sholom Stroks released. He had been accused of kidnapping his nephew, Yossele Schumacher. The information was meager and the key person was R’ Shlomo Maidanchek, but he was gone.
May Hashem help that we soon merit the day when all arise and will be able to tell us themselves what they saw and heard and did.